Icebound Equipment and Vehicles

[PolletteIrieska]

I just wanted to point out on the idea of mechanicals....

When you hit ice, real ice, expect things to start breaking down much faster. Temperatures cold enough to freeze the sea are cold enough to have an effect on the properties of metals, not to mention the lubricants that allow those parts to work together with minimal friction.

While magic sets a lot of these objections aside, I believe that we should look towards societies that are already icebound for more inspiration. The most notable of these is, of course, dog sleds. They were used for everything from mail carriers to personal transport to law enforcement vehicles. Now, I realize that this thread is for discussing new creations, but such an elegantly simple solution should occur to a lot of folks, and can be easily built upon. Examples:
Dog sleds + regular way stations = shipping route (for ordinary goods, why wear down valuable golems that no one knows how to repair?)
Larger sleds + reindeer team = war chariot (Santa-bot, anyone?)
Dog sleds + magic = whatever you can figure out

[Ascendant]

They would just adapt to a pitted metal, as pitted metal is super slick in ice conditions. They would also likely have developed an oil or substance that works well in cold conditions and resists ice build-up.

[PolletteIrieska]

And where will they get the trees/coal to act as fuel for all of this forging and metallurgy? Is alchemy such an advanced field in this world that we can expect them to come up with super-slick oils when, recently enough (as I understand what I've read thus far) survival was a very big issue for all involved?

I realize that everyone wants to do something cool and different for this world, and I applaud your creativity. However, just doing something cool because it's cool gets you Eberron.

[Ascendant]

It's not about "superslick", but is about viscosity and thickness at particular temperatures, and reserves deep in the ground isn't the only place that oil comes from. There are literally thousands of different natural oils on earth coming from plants, animals, and even the soil itself (not underground). Even on an ice world there will be ample sources of different types of oil. People of the ancient past were far more resourceful than you give them credit for.

Also, it has already been established that dwarves have taken up mining in the mountains, from which metals would come from. So yes, a porous metal could easily be used. There being undoubtedly plenty of underground dwellings, oils of all kinds would be available through root farming and harvesting cold water seal-like creatures and burrowing insects.

[Phoenix]

Also, it has already been established that dwarves have taken up mining in the mountains, from which metals would come from. So yes, a porous metal could easily be used. There being undoubtedly plenty of underground dwellings, oils of all kinds would be available through root farming and harvesting cold water seal-like creatures and burrowing insects.

Not exactly, it's been established that Dwarves do mining not that they mine metals.

[Ascendant]

Thus I made the factual statement that they mine, and then I made the inference "from which metals would come from".

I would like to point out a little something to you, Phoenix. This is like the third time you've corrected something of mine that was not necessary to correct. This strikes me as confrontational. I realize that a tendency to correct is just a part of your personality, but just so you know, it tends to rub the wrong way. Just letting you know.

[Phoenix]

Thus I made the factual statement that they mine, and then I made the inference "from which metals would come from".

I would like to point out a little something to you, Phoenix. This is like the third time you've corrected something of mine that was not necessary to correct. This strikes me as confrontational. I realize that a tendency to correct is just a part of your personality, but just so you know, it tends to rub the wrong way. Just letting you know.

Metals do not come from all mining.  If they happen to be mining something else, like the fuel source there may not be any metals in the area.

[DarkSkrypter]

Heh, another argument begins - This is a pattern I seem to be seeing a lot on the forums during the development of the icebound setting.

Dwarves don't necessarily need to be the only ones who mine for coal, and other fuels or metals.  There could be another race who did or still does mine, one that existed on the world before the world became bound in ice as it were.  That existing race could have crafted several technologies that survived or didn't survive the first few years of the ice age.  Forges from this unknown race could have been discovered and the dwarves who migrated to this world could have used their knowledge to bring those forges back to life, while struggling to get settled into the strangeness of the world.

Some metals could easily be found in natural deposits on the surface, and these deposits could be the ones getting mined either by dwarves or another race.

It's even possible that a meteorite brought with it an uncommon metal that is only used for specially crafted items.

As far as oils and viscosity go - A natural oil used to seal the wood on a dog sled does two things.  First it seals the wood so that it cannot crack or break, and second it helps with movement over hard or lose packed snow, ice or similar terrain by making the texture smoother.  Seal-fats are commonly used for a heat source, and a sealant for wood.  Wood is mostly rare in many icy terrain, and metal may be rarer still.  Some cultures today still use Whalebone or similar animal bones to craft tools and transportation devices.

[Phoenix]

Dwarves don't necessarily need to be the only ones who mine for coal, and other fuels or metals.  There could be another race who did or still does mine, one that existed on the world before the world became bound in ice as it were.  That existing race could have crafted several technologies that survived or didn't survive the first few years of the ice age.  Forges from this unknown race could have been discovered and the dwarves who migrated to this world could have used their knowledge to bring those forges back to life, while struggling to get settled into the strangeness of the world.

It was never intended that Dwarves would be the only miners.  Other miners have been brought up before during the chats.  Dwarves are simply the most numereous at the mining city.

[PolletteIrieska]

It's not about "superslick", but is about viscosity and thickness at particular temperatures, and reserves deep in the ground isn't the only place that oil comes from. There are literally thousands of different natural oils on earth coming from plants, animals, and even the soil itself (not underground). Even on an ice world there will be ample sources of different types of oil. People of the ancient past were far more resourceful than you give them credit for.

Please don't make assumptions that my mindset is coming from lack of credit to ancient peoples. I was trying to point out that we can look to our own past and present for solutions. Though rarer, dog-sleds still get used alongside the snowmobile. Part of the reason for that is because, when the temperature drops enough, the modern alternatives don't work reliably. Another reason is that the dog teams help keep local predators at bay. I didn't want to see simple, (relatively) inexpensive solutions ignored just because they didn't strike folks as new and different enough.

As for natural oils, no, you don't have to go far afield for them. Rapeseed, for example, grows well at cooler temperatures and doesn't even require all that much processing. I have to wonder how much of the limited arable land will be set aside for something other than food, however. Without knowing what size of population you're dealing with (very sparse and very dense both mean that cultivated land will be largely food) then such a basic economic question is impossible to answer.

I'm not asking folks to scrap their suggestions. I think that the caterpillar golems in particular show a lot of possibilities and I'd really love to see them realized. I also love the ice boats and suggest that folks interested in seeing them added to the world look to ice yachting for ideas about design.

Heh, another argument begins - This is a pattern I seem to be seeing a lot on the forums during the development of the icebound setting.

Dwarves don't necessarily need to be the only ones who mine for coal, and other fuels or metals.  There could be another race who did or still does mine, one that existed on the world before the world became bound in ice as it were.  That existing race could have crafted several technologies that survived or didn't survive the first few years of the ice age.  Forges from this unknown race could have been discovered and the dwarves who migrated to this world could have used their knowledge to bring those forges back to life, while struggling to get settled into the strangeness of the world.

Some metals could easily be found in natural deposits on the surface, and these deposits could be the ones getting mined either by dwarves or another race.

It's even possible that a meteorite brought with it an uncommon metal that is only used for specially crafted items.

As far as oils and viscosity go - A natural oil used to seal the wood on a dog sled does two things.  First it seals the wood so that it cannot crack or break, and second it helps with movement over hard or lose packed snow, ice or similar terrain by making the texture smoother.  Seal-fats are commonly used for a heat source, and a sealant for wood.  Wood is mostly rare in many icy terrain, and metal may be rarer still.  Some cultures today still use Whalebone or similar animal bones to craft tools and transportation devices.

All valid poi\nts, DarkSkrypter, and I really appreciate you adding the information. I see a lot of arguments here, too, which is why I've stayed out of the area until now. I didn't feel comfortable entering the fray.

On the subject of creatures other than dwarves that mine, goblins and hobgoblins were, at one time in the game, seen as very adept miners, a fact which led in part to the legendary enmity between goblinoids and dwarves. Perhaps we could exploit that for Icebound?

I would like to point out a little something to you, Phoenix. This is like the third time you've corrected something of mine that was not necessary to correct. This strikes me as confrontational. I realize that a tendency to correct is just a part of your personality, but just so you know, it tends to rub the wrong way. Just letting you know.

I'm not speaking to defend or chastise anyone, but I would like to request that, in the future, statements like this be kept to PMs. They make the whole thread a less comfortable place for all involved.